Monkey King vs Lord Erlang: Who really Won their Duel and is the Superior Warrior

20/10/2021

Contents:

Introduction

The Outcomes of Each Round
1. Round 1
  [...]
  Round 11
The Better Demon Queller
Characters' Views on the Battle
1. Wukong Himself
2. Guanyin
3. Laozi
4. Earth Deity at the Mountain of Flames
5. Author Wu Cheng'en
The Direct Words of the Author

Conclusion
Notes

Introduction

Sun Wukong vs God Erlang (erlang shen, 二郎神) is no doubt one of the most epic duels in Journey to the West, a battle of skills, intellect and transformations between two of the greatest warriors in the story. While Monkey's loss may seem unjust due to the involvement of other gods, the novel actually contains many details which suggest that Erlang was undeniably prevailing throughout the battle. This article will delve into the intricacies of their encounter, analysing their duel, and the perspective of others on the outcome, hoping to be able to provide clear explanations for readers' understanding.

[Src. 1] Monkey vs Erlang [JTTW, 2011]

1. The Outcomes of Each Round

Monkey and Erlang’s great battle consisted of a sequence of many rounds, all revolving around their combat, intellect and transformation skills. A description of each round and a comment of its results are listed below.

1.1. Round 1

Type: Combat.
Monkey and Erlang’s opening fight. The two of them duelled for over 300 bouts.
Result: Draw.

1.2. Round 2

Type: Transformation & combat.
After a long and fruitless clash, Erlang exerted his magic and transformed himself into a 100,000 foot tall giant. Monkey then imitated his opponent’s form and turned himself into a giant too, the same size as Erlang. They resumed in combat.
Result: None - a draw until Wukong fled for the safety of his fellow monkeys, to keep them safe from Erlang’s men.

1.3. Round 3

Type: Transformation.
Monkey flees by transforming into a sparrow a flying away. Erlang sees this and turns himself into a sparrow hawk to hunt Monkey down.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.4. Round 4

Type: Transformation.
Monkey then changes into a cormorant to be able to fly higher, out of Erlang’s reach as a hawk. Erlang notices and transforms into an ocean crane to give chase.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.5. Round 5

Type: Transformation & intellect.
Monkey was afraid of Erlang’s more dominant transformations and turns himself into a small fish to hide in a stream. Erlang changes into a fish hawk and scans the stream for Monkey’s trace. He cleverly identifies the fish that Monkey turned into and attempts to seize him.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.6. Round 6

Type: Transformation.
Monkey immediately darts out of the water when he sees Erlang and changes into a water snake. Erlang transforms into a grey crane to catch the snake.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.7. Round 7

Type: Transformation & intellect.
Monkey sees that Erlang had turned into a crane to chase him, so he cunningly transforms into a spotted bustard to confront Erlang as a crane.
Result: Monkey wins - Erlang as a crane did not dare approach the bustard [1].

1.8. Round 8

Type: Transformation & combat.
Erlang was afraid to approach Monkey after he had changed into the bustard. Instead, Erlang reverted to his original form and took out his pellet bow. He aimed at Monkey’s bustard and succeeded with a strong direct hit.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.9. Round 9

Type: Transformation & intellect.
After being knocked far back by Erlang’s pellet, Monkey now executes one of his best disguises, transforming himself into a temple for the local earth deity. When Erlang arrives at the scene, he manages to deduce that the temple was really a flawed transformation of Monkey. He proceeds to attack its eyes and teeth, forcing Monkey to flee in panic.
Result: Erlang wins.

1.10. Round 10

Type: Transformation.
Monkey flees all the way to Erlang’s residence at Guanjiangkou (灌江口), where Monkey assumes the form of Erlang himself, fooling everyone at the place. With the guidance of the Heavenly King Li's Demon-Reflecting Mirror (zhaoyao jing, 照妖镜), Erlang chases Monkey to his own home. He discovers the specious Lord Erlang inside and exposes the impostor as Sun Wukong.
Result: None.

1.11. Round 11

Type: Combat.
The endgame of Sun Wukong and Lord Erlang’s battle. While the two were locked in combat, Supreme Exalted Lord Lao throws down his Diamond Cutter (jingang zhuo, 金刚琢) hoop, which knocks Monkey down from behind. Erlang’s dog bites onto Monkey to prevent him from escaping, leading to Monkey’s ultimate arrest.
Result: None - an unfair victory for Erlang.

1.12. Results

Looking at the results of this analysis, Erlang has 6 apparent wins, Monkey with 1 from playing a dirty move, and 4 rounds were drawn or undetermined. Judging from these statistics, it is perceptible that Lord Erlang emerged as the victor.

2. The Better Demon Queller

Apart from his mission to arrest Monkey, Erlang has made a second appearance later on in chapter 63 of the novel. At the time, Erlang and his six brothers of Plum Mountain (meishan, 梅山) were returning home from a hunting trip, passing by Emerald-Wave Lagoon (bibo tan, 碧波谭) where Monkey and Pigsy were struggling against the Nine-Headed Beast (jiutou chong, 九头虫). With no success, Monkey decided it was best to ask his former victor, Lord Erlang, for a helping hand in the situation [src. 2]. The Nine-Headed Beast was then defeated single-handedly by Erlang [src. 3]. Erlang's ability to defeat the Nine-Headed Beast, when Monkey and Pigsy combined could not, proves himself to be significantly stronger in subduing demons.

“Eight Rules,” said Pilgrim, “those seven sages [of Plum Mountain] happen to be my bond-brothers. We should detain them and ask them to help us do battle. If we succeed, it’ll be a wonderful opportunity for us.”

[Src. 2] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 3, ch. 63, p. 187

[Src. 3] Monkey and Pigsy watch as Erlang takes out the demon for them [JTTW, 2011]

3. Characters' Views on the Battle

There have been several mentions of Monkey and Erlang’s battle delivered by various characters throughout the Journey to the West novel. I list five of the most notable ones below, all of which imply that Wukong is a defeated opponent of Erlang.

3.1. Wukong Himself

The words of Sun Wukong, who was one of the main belligerents of the battle, are unarguable. Wukong is not a monkey who likes to lose or even admit defeat, but he has made quite a few mentions of Erlang defeating him in their duel when introducing his past to other characters in the novel.

The most prominent of these mentions of his loss lies with Monkey’s introduction of his and Erlang’s history to Pigsy, as recorded in chapter 63, where Monkey directly states that he is a defeated war opponent of Lord Erlang and has no face to greet him [src. 4-6].

“Eight Rules,” said Pilgrim, “those seven sages happen to be my bond-brothers. We should detain them and ask them to help us do battle. If we succeed, it’ll be a wonderful opportunity for us.” “If they’re your brothers,” replied Eight Rules, “we should indeed ask them to stay.” “But they have in their midst Big Brother Illustrious Sagacity [Erlang],” said Pilgrim, “who once defeated me. I’m a little embarrassed about showing myself abruptly to him. […]”

[Src. 4] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 3, ch. 63, p. 187

[Src. 5] An embarrassed Monkey tries to hide from Erlang [JTTW, 2011]

[Src. 6] Monkey is shy to ask Erlang for help [JTTW, 2011]

Monkey introduces his history and feats in a lengthy poem to the Black Wind Monster (heifeng guai, 黑风怪) in chapter 17. He mentions "falling" defeat to Erlang whose transformation skills he praised.

[…]
The Devaraja [Li] was beaten back to Heaven,
While Nata [Nezha] in pain led his troops and fled.
Xiansheng Master [Erlang] knew transformations well;
With him I waged a contest and I fell.
[…]

[Src. 7] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 1, ch. 17, p. 353

During Monkey and Pigsy's first encounter and battle in chapter 19, Pigsy was boasting about his divine weapon, the Nine-Pronged Iron Rake (jiuchi dingpa, 九齿钉耙), and how insanely powerful it was. Monkey stretched out his head and challenged Pigsy to give him a blow. When Pigsy struck Monkey's head with all his might and was unable to make even a scratch, Monkey told him that his skull had been refined in Lord Lao's furnace after he was arrested by "the Little Sage Erlang".

“You didn’t know about this, did you?” said Pilgrim. “When I caused such turmoil in Heaven by stealing the magic pills, the immortal peaches, and the imperial wine, I was captured by the Little Sage Erlang and taken to the Polestar Palace. The various celestial beings chopped me with an ax, pounded me with a bludgeon, cut me with a scimitar, jabbed me with a sword, burned me with fire, and struck me with thunder—all this could not hurt me one whit. Then I was taken by Laozi and placed in his eight-trigram brazier, in which I was refined by divine fire until I had fiery eyes and diamond pupils, a bronze head and iron arms. If you don’t believe me, give me some more blows and see whether it hurts me at all.””

[Src. 8] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 1, ch. 19, p. 384

Lastly, after encountering a demon king with an insanely powerful treasure and losing his Gold-Banded Staff in chapter 51, Monkey was skeptical that the demon was a celestial who had secretly descended from Heaven. He travelled up the celestial palace to investigate, but to no fruit. The Jade Emperor then permitted Monkey to select a few celestial warriors as reinforcements to help him subdue the demon, which Monkey wasn't the most assured with, since all these warriors had been defeated by him in the past.

Bowing his head, Pilgrim thought to himself, “Those warriors in Heaven whose abilities are not as good as old Monkey’s are plentiful, but those just as good are few. Remember when I caused great havoc in the Celestial Palace: the Jade Emperor sent out one hundred thousand Heaven soldiers with cosmic nets, but there is not a single person who could stand up to me. They found my match only when they called up the Little Sage Erlang. Now this fiend has abilities as strong as old Monkey’s. How could we prevail against him?”

[Src. 9] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 3, ch. 51, p. 4

3.2. Guanyin

Bodhisattva Guanyin is known to be one of the wisest characters in not just Journey to the West, but in all of Chinese folklore as well. With her eyes of wisdom (huiyan, 慧眼), she is able to gain insight into all matters anywhere. Her knowledge of the world’s affairs is undoubted, and thus everybody knows she gives the finest advice, all based on her wise assessments. Naturally, Guanyin’s recommendation of dispatching Lord Erlang to arrest the monkey demon was errorless [src. 10-11]. Through her insights, she knows in mind that in the entire celestial palace, only the Jade Emperor’s nephew Erlang has the skills to rival and conquer the Great Sage. Guanyin’s judgement is surely unquestionable.

[…] Guanyin folded her hands and said to him [Jade Emperor]. “Your Majesty, let not your mind be troubled! This humble cleric will recommend a god who can capture the monkey.” “Which one would you recommend?” said the Jade Emperor. “Your Majesty’s nephew,” said the Bodhisattva, “the Immortal Master of Illustrious Sagacity Erlang, who is living at the mouth of the River of Libations in the Guan Prefecture and enjoying the incense and oblations offered to him from the Region Below. […]”

[Src. 10] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 1, ch. 6, p. 178

[Src. 11] Guanyin recommends to the Jade Emperor that only God Erlang has the powers to beat Monkey [JTTW, 1986]

3.3. Laozi

Supreme Exalted Lord Lao was a significant supporting force during Monkey and Erlang’s battle. He was the one who ultimately ended the long fight by knocking Monkey down from behind with his Diamond Cutter (see para. 1.11). Later on in the novel, Monkey pays Laozi a visit to borrow an elixir as requested by Tripitaka. There, Laozi complains to Monkey about him being such a troublemaker and, in passing, fully credits Erlang to have been the one who defeated him [src. 12-13]. Not taking any of Erlang’s great merit, you cannot deny the words of the patriarch of Daoism [2] himself.

“Monkey,” said Laozi, “when you caused great disruption in Heaven five hundred years ago, you stole and consumed countless efficacious elixirs of mine. And when we sent the Little Sage Erlang to arrest you and bring you to the Region Above, you were sent to be refined in my elixir brazier for forty-nine days and made me squander who knows how much charcoal. […]”

[Src. 12] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 2, ch. 39, p. 193

[Src. 13] Monkey bothers an annoyed Laozi [JTTW, 2011]

3.4. Earth Deity at the Mountain of Flames

When the Earth deity at the Mountain of Flames introduces the setting to the pilgrims, he reveals that he used to be a Daoist who watched over Laozi’s furnace. He continues to explain that it was in fact Monkey who caused the flames of the mountain, when he knocked over Laozi’s furnace after being sentenced to be burnt there when he was arrested by Lord Erlang [src. 14-15]. This Earthy deity who used to reside in Heaven must know the matters of Heaven and Earth, and his statements are therefore most valid.

“You can’t possibly recognize me now,” said the local spirit [Earth deity]. “There was no such mountain in this place originally. Five hundred years ago, when the Great Sage caused great disturbance in the Celestial Palace, you were caught by Illustrious Sagacity [Erlang] and taken in custody to Laozi. […]”

[Src. 14] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 3, ch. 60, p. 133

[Src. 15] The Mountain of Flames's Earth deity introduces himself and the place to Monkey [JTTW, 2011]

3.5. Author Wu Cheng'en

See para. 4.

4. The Direct Words of the Author

From the written words of JTTW author Wu Cheng’en himself, it is evident that he intended to write Lord Erlang as a more powerful character than Sun Wukong. This is gathered from his use of words for the title chapter 6, the chapter where the great battle takes place. See src. 16 for reference, translated by Prof. Anthony C. Yu (2012).

Guanyin, attending the banquet, inquires into the cause;
The Little Sage [3], exerting his power, subdues the Great Sage.

[Src. 16] Wu & Yu (2012) The Journey to the West, vol. 1, ch. 6, p. 174

A more accurate translation of this title would be:

Guanyin, attending the feast, enquires [4] into the cause;
The Little Sage, displaying his prestige, subdues the Great Sage.

[Src. 17] Wu (1592) Xiyouji, ch. 6, translated by the author

[Src. 18] The original Chinese title of chapter 6; yellow: "displays prestige", red: "subdues" [by the author]

From this line alone, it is clear that the author has written Erlang to have suppressed Monkey [src. 17-18]. The use of the phrase “displaying prestige” gives the impression that Erlang’s power is much greater, and allows him to be presented as more prestigious, in comparison to Monkey. The next point lies with the single word “subdue". This one word is highly effective in expressing the ultimate outcome of Monkey and Erlang’s fight, proving that even the author himself acknowledges that God Erlang has truly beaten the Monkey King.

Conclusion

Supported by the many reasons above, I should make it clear that Lord Erlang has proved himself to be the superior warrior over Sun Wukong. All this is evident from the novel's contents; the outcomes of each round during the enduring battle sequence of, statements of perspective made by various characters throughout the novel on Erlang’s achievement in arresting Monkey (particular Monkey himself admitting to be Erlang’s defeated opponent), and last but not least, the Journey to the West author’s intention of writing Erlang as a stronger character as indicated in his choice of words. Though Monkey's ultimate defeat was an unfair loss due to the involvement of the gods above, Erlang should still be commended here as the better warrior, manifested from the fact that he forced Monkey to retreat, and his ability to adapt and respond to all of Monkey's escapades effectively. Ultimately, it is safe to say no matter the debate on whether Lord Erlang won this duel fair and square or not, the Monkey King's powers and skills are not greater than Heaven's strongest warrior.

- Notes

[1] bustard (鸨)
From the words of author Wu Cheng’en explaining this analogy, translated by Anthony C. Yu (2012):
When Erlang saw that the monkey had changed into such a vulgar creature—for the spotted bustard is the basest and most promiscuous of birds, mating indiscriminately with phoenixes, hawks, or crows—he refused to approach him. Changing back into his true form, […].
Context: at the time when Monkey changed into the bustard, Erlang was in the form of a crane (see para. 1.6-1.7), hence he as a bird didn’t go near the lustful bustard.

[2] patriarch of Daoism (道教之祖)
The historical philosopher Laozi (c. 571-442 BC?, 老子, lit: Master Lao), born Li Er (李耳), is traditionally believed to be the founder of the religion Daoism (a.k.a. Taoism), hence his venerable title “Patriarch of Daoism” (a.k.a. Patriarch of Dao - daozu, 道祖).

[3] Little Sage (小圣)
“Little Sage” is a title of God Erlang. I am not certain why he is so called, but it iss likely that the JTTW author implemented this name as a literary balance to contrast with the Great Sage, both being the strongest warriors with just the Great Sage appearing to be more arrogant since his title is self-proclaimed.

[4] enquires
As an Australian, the preference for British English spelling conventions has been adopted, as with the rest of this website.

10 Comments

Chris

12/4/2023 03:45:24

Hello Mr. Wong,
I have some comments and questions regarding this rather well thought out article. I’ve been a fan of JTTW for many years, but I only truly read through the entire novel last year. My concern is this: Could one not read this fight as a battle between complete equal warriors? After 300 rounds of draws, and then a battle between their giant forms ending in a draw, you use rounds 3-10 as victories for Erlang. But could one not argue that Wukong was no longer trying to defeat Erlang? Once he fled for his monkey’s safety, his goal was escape. Not because he was afraid of Erlang but because 1. His monkey’s safety, and 2. He likely knew if he stayed it would turn into fighting more than just Erlang. And if I remember correctly, he actually did successfully escape. It was only when another god pointed out the monkey king’s location to Erlang that the chase resumed. My point being, that for the duration of rounds 3-10, it was no longer a fight but a chase (which Erlang would’ve failed if not for help). Once wukong realized he was not getting away, he resorting to fighting again, which was described again as a deadlock, until Laozi threw his ring at the monkey king. In a fair 1 versus 1 fight with no assistance, it seems to me that Wukong and Erlang in the context of the story alone are equals, since every time they actually were fighting, it was a draw until some outside interference. Wukong and others credit Erlang with the victory (obviously wukong hates that he was captured at all I’m sure) but it was not erlang’s efforts alone.

Grady Stephon Livingston

9/8/2023 10:38:44

Chris got a point. Erlang was only on Equal footing with Wukong. Laozi personally had dropped his refined golden ring that had hit Sun Wukong on the head. That's how Erlang captured Wukong. It was Laozi who captured Sun Wukong.

Irwen W (author)

19/3/2024 21:01:03

Hi Chris, deep apologies for the year-late reply; I wasn't notified of your comment on this post until now.

Firstly, thank you for your time to read my blog and leave this insightful comment. Allow me to offer a few counterpoints for consideration. You're not wrong; this duel was certainly intended to be a battle of equals, a clash of titans, per se. What you pointed out about Monkey deciding to flee for his subjects' safety and prevent further escalation with Erlang's men is also correct, that was his primary intent. However, these actions also reflect the tactical aspects of Chinese warfare. The decision to flee, especially in Chinese narratives, is generally interpreted to two verdicts: first is a feigned defeat to lure the opponent to a chase into a preset trap, the second is an acknowledgement of the opponent's formidable prowess that's unwise to keep up. In this situation, it is interpreted as the latter, as Monkey had no other plan and chose to escape in acknowledgement of the challenging situation he was in. As for rounds 3-10 you mentioned, it was perceived as an indication of Erlang's ability to adapt and respond to Monkey's strategies effectively, which is a crucial aspect to what makes a warrior great. Monkey on the other hand, chose to keep fleeing. Though he did successfully escape, such is not really an act of a heroic warrior reacting to adversity, acknowledging he has not the ability to beat Erlang.

The involvement of celestial deities and the eventual capture of Monkey with external assistance does not necessarily diminish the fact that Erlang was able to hold his own against Monkey. It is common in epic tales for heroes, Monkey here, to face insurmountable odds and for conflicts to be influenced by external forces, all for storytelling purposes. The interplay of the gods, such as Li Jing with his mirror and Laozi with his fillet, serves to underscore their interconnectedness within the celestial hierarchy. Monkey’s arrest certainly wasn’t the efforts of Erlang alone, there were external factors interfering to assist Erlang swifter in his pursuit. However, in the novel’s figurative context as composed by the author, it is implied throughout that Erlang was the victor, with Monkey even acknowledging this when he needed Erlang’s help in chapter 63 (see para. 3.1).

Above are just my views in response to what you’ve pointed out in your perceptive comment for your consideration. I thank you again for your time and feedback. Please let me know if there are any other uncertainties.

Nathan

27/8/2024 00:15:36

Hi Irwen,
I've enjoyed reading your insightful explanation between Wukong and Erlang, and also became intrigued by Chris' thoughts and counter arguments to your view between who is the better between Wukong and Erlang.

I want to play devil's advocate and press further with Chris' thoughts. If there are some details that I mention that are untrue, please point them out to me.

Chris had mentioned how, when both Wukong and Erlang were on the offensive in a pure 1 v 1 match they were equal. However, when external factors come into play beyond the 1 v 1, such as Wukong's concern for his monkeys and his prediction that he would face several opponents, not just Erlang, led him to believe that continuing to fight was futile. So, Wukong strategically decided to leave. This is not unreasonable, for perhaps Wukong believed that himself and his monkeys over an extended period of mass battle will eventually fall not just to Erlang, but the immense army of heaven. If Wukong and Erlang were equally matched when alone, but when you consider that Wukong's monkeys are perhaps outnumbered and "outgunned" by the heavenly army at Erlang's disposal, we see that the "weakness" here is not Wukong himself, but his monkeys.

Therefore, Wukong did admit that he was bested by Erlang, and may have believed that he was bested by Erlang because of his eventual capture by Erlang. However, I believe Wukong underestimated his own abilities and overextended in taking responsibility for his monkey's disadvantages against the heavenly army. If he were to be more specific, Wukong should have the right to say, "If Erlang and I battled alone, we are equally matched. However, the might of heaven's warriors and deities will eventually overwhelm my comrades. Therefore, my monkeys and I will not be able to win against Erlang and his entire heavenly army." We can use a thought experiment here, if Wukong and Erlang both commanded the same heavenly army and had the same deity support on both sides, this battle would be a complete stalemate.

The situation above made Wukong decide to flee. Again, to clarify, Wukong's reason to flee isn't actually, "I am losing against Erlang in a 1 v 1 battle". It is specifically due to Wukong's monkeys likely to be overwhelmed by the heavenly army and the many deities of heaven. Instead of thinking "we are losing, let's flee", which is what is actually happening, Wukong believes, "I am losing, lets flee". This draws doubt to the belief that Erlang is stronger than Wukong, because the best way to determine this is through a pure 1 v 1, which they are evenly matched. Thus, I want to bring to light that to consider Wukong and his monkeys vs Erlang and the entire heavenly army and deities is not a good representation of who is stronger between Wukong and Erlang themselves alone. This "external influence" begins after their 1 v 1 matches, when Wukong decides to flee, so every instance beyond this cannot be consider a good reflection of "who is stronger between Wukong and Erlang".

If we think about the fleeing scene and reversed the roles, lets say Wukong had the support of the heavenly army and deities and Erlang had Wukong's monkey army, and Erlang decided to flee, it would be interesting to ask if Wukong may be able to perform a similar "checkmate" transformation situation as Erlang did to Wukong. It would be interesting to see how Wukong's wit stacks up against Erlang's.

Pressing further into Chris' belief that Wukong may have been able to successfully escape if it were not for external assistance for Erlang, what it does indicate is that if it were a 1 v 1 situation with Wukong fleeing and Erlang chasing, without external involvement, Wukong would have succeeded in fleeing. This would indicate that Wukong would actually outwit Erlang. Although Erlang did "counter" many of Wukong's transformations, if it weren't for external assistance, Wukong would have escaped in a situation likening to, "lose the transformation battle but win the war of wit by successfully escaping".

I want to address the witnesses' accounts on who the victor is between Wukong and Erlang. Paragraphs 3, 4 and 5, should cast doubt on Wukong himself, Guanyin, Laozi, the Earth Deity, and dare I say the author Wu Cheng'En's "beliefs" that Erlang is stronger than Wukong. To quickly reiterate paragraphs 3, 4 and 5, all of these individuals pinned the eventual arrest and loss of Wukong and his monkey's vs Erlang and the entire heavenly army and deities as a good litmus for Erlang being stronger than Wukong. However, I argue that this is fallacious because only a 1 v 1 between Wukong and Erlang is a true indicator of who is stronger, which they are evenly matched when they are both on the offensive and no external influence comes into play. Guanyin did believe that Erlang would beat Wukong, and if Guanyin believed it were a specific 1 v 1 where Wukong would eventually lose, then this would be the strongest argument for Erlang being the better out of t

Nathan

27/8/2024 11:17:29

Hi Irwen,
This is a part two that continues on my earlier comment because it looks as though some of my final points were cut out due to word limits. This is based on my memory of the rest of my comment, and I will repeat the final sentence that was cut off and continue from there.

Guanyin did believe that Erlang would beat Wukong, and if Guanyin believed it were a specific 1 v 1 where Wukong would eventually lose, then this would be the strongest argument for Erlang being the better out of the two, as she is the wisest. However, was Guanyin's prediction of Erlang being better than Wukong based on a 1 v 1 offensive battle, or did she foresee that Wukong, and his monkeys would eventually lose to Erlang and the heavenly army and deities due to a mismatch between the monkeys and the heavenly army? Basically, did Guanyin predict that Erlang's external support would turn the tides of the battle between Wukong and Erlang, changing it from an even match to the eventual loss and capture of Wukong by Erlang? From this, did she simply this complex scenario and labelled it as "Erlang can beat Wukong in a 1 v 1"? If she did, it casts great doubt on its validity.

Laozi, the patriarchy of Daoism did not take credit for Erlang's capture of Wukong, praising Erlang as the one solely responsible for the capture of Wukong. However, just because Laozi is the forefather of Daoism does not mean we cover our eyes to the fact that Laozi's diamond cutter knocked Wukong and eventually led to his arrest by Erlang.

Finally, I want to address the point on Erlang being the better demon queller than Wukong. I think demon quelling is one of Erlang's strengths where he is better than Wukong, but I don't think it is a strong argument for who is stronger between the two. Again, the best indication of who is stronger is when they engage in an offensive 1 v 1 battle, which they were evenly matched. Although Erlang is a better demon queller, Wukong is the more mischievous and has more wit. Without external assistance, Wukong would have successfully escaped Erlang, demonstrating his higher ceiling in intellect. Further, Wukong caused an extensive amount of trouble in heaven, something I don't think Erlang could do. These are just some examples of Wukong's strengths that exceeds Erlang's. I do believe each of their strengths would translate in some shape or form into their combative and strategic abilities, which would be used during their 1 v 1 battle. In this battle, we see that they are evenly matched.

This is part 2 of my thoughts on Wukong and Erlang being evenly matched in combat and strength, and that they also have their own strengths in different areas. As a reminder, I am playing devil's advocate here. I would love your thoughts on the ideas and arguments I put forward, as I am developing a strong interest in Wukong and Journey to the West from the recent Black Myth Wukong game.

china boy

1/9/2024 19:33:34

There are probably two reasons why Erlang God is called Little Sage, one is because his mother is in the hands of the Emperor, which can be seen from "listening to the tune and not listening to the Xuan (obeying the transfer of the Emperor, but maintaining self-independence and self-reliance)"; The other, more or less, is modesty; Finally, regarding the literary balance you mentioned, this Chinese does have this kind of literary device, but in general, it is necessary to consider other meanings of the things that its words refer to, which is to pursue the perfection of the structure and content of the text

liana link

12/7/2023 17:10:41

thanks for info

Mario

21/10/2024 17:46:10

I can clearly see that Erlang is stronger than wukong. But, in your analysys its said that he was stronger than "old monkey" i guess they are talking before he was thrown into the furnace and became even stronger. So now my question is: Is Erlang stronger than post-furnace Wukong?

nihao

1/9/2024 19:13:12

hello Nathan ，As for the fact that you mentioned that Erlang God can't cause trouble to Heavenly Court, in fact, he has already done the same thing as Wukong. In Black Myth, we notice that he is holding a huge axe and chopping action, which is actually a relatively hidden "easter egg" content, which contains an allusion to "杨戬 Splitting the Mountain to Save His Mother", which is simply the story of his mother falling in love with a mortal and finally being separated by Heaven and imprisoned in 骊山, and the tone of the story is revenge.

Finally, about the combat strength of 杨戬 and Wukong, it is usually equivalent in Chinese stories. In the era when Journey to the West was written, in the 16th century, he was the supreme god of battle in Chinese folk mythology, and to put it bluntly, he was the strongest fighter who did not listen to the dispatch of the Emperor of Heaven, so he was the strongest, so Wukong would fight him.

As for the change competition, this point is clearly stronger than Wukong, Wukong has seventy-two changes in one day, he is seventy-three changes, and because the book was written too early, these changes contain the meaning of one life, that is, 杨戬 has 73 lives, Wukong has 72 lives, in one day (this is also uncertain in China, the purpose of the seventy-two changes is to avoid three kinds of disasters, some people think that these seventy-two lives are all time)

15/2/2025 04:31:28

I believe a lot of people underestimate how many characters, not just Erlang, are described as "equally matched" or drawn in the novel. Even the Scorpion demon was able to inflict great pain, even to the Buddha. The nine-headed beast mentioned in this article is also a similar example. The obsession with interpreting Wukong into this all-powerful being feels strange. Is it not better to see the trickster archetype overcome odds with their wit, intellect, and cooperation with others? It's one of the reasons the story got so popular in the first place.